Jasmine: Hi Jocelyn and Julia! Congratulations Jocelyn on your debut picture book, and thank you both for creating WHEN LOVE IS MORE THAN WORDS. I was immediately intrigued by the title and thrilled to see this Taiwanese American pairing. What a beautiful story that will resonate deeply with young readers. This book is a mirror for me, as I felt transported back to my Taiwanese childhood.
I love that you’ve captured the magic of intergenerational love in WHEN LOVE IS MORE THAN WORDS. What inspired you to write this story?
Jocelyn: I grew up in SoCal with intergenerational love all around me! I grew up with 4 generations of my extended family gathering together multiple times a year.
Even now, when we gather, it’s at least 80 people packed into a house or community center, with so much laughter and food around us. My cousins and I spent every summer together growing up. Our A-tzo (great-grandma), our matriarch, was in my life until I was 16, when she passed at 108 years old. Growing up, I always knew I was just one person in the much greater context of my huge family, and I wanted to capture the beauty of that in this story.
Julia: I definitely brought my own upbringing and background into illustrating this story! When reading Jocelyn’s text, I knew instantly that we shared a similar family background – that we probably had family that came to the states through the Hart Cellar Act via their higher education.
I spent a lot of time growing up with my extended family in the States and lived with my Agong and Amah for a year in Taiwan. It was easy to illustrate the acts of love that happened all throughout my childhood.
I also recently became a mom, so now I get to witness my family showering love on my daughter in the same way I received it!
Jasmine: Amazing, and yes, life is different from the other side. As a parent of two little kiddos, I find myself repeating phrases or actions from my own parents growing up, for better or for worse. How have your parents, grandparents, and/ or caretakers shown you love? Has your past influenced how you show love to others or how you raise your children (if you have children)? Has that changed overtime?
Julia: [My [parents and grandparents] show love in a very nonverbal way, one where they anticipate needs and preemptively fulfill them without even asking…like making sure I am never hungry or cold! As someone who was born here, sometimes the American side of me resists that – but I know that they willingly give us everything they think is best.
Now that I’m a mom, I can already see myself carrying on some of that culture. We thought about giving our daughter a hyphenated last name, which is much more American than it is Taiwanese, because I wanted her to come into this world as a modern woman living free of patriarchal restraints. But at the same time I realized I was imposing my own values on her, wanting her to surpass me in the areas I care about. It was joyful and sad to realize what was happening in the moment.
Jocelyn: I’m not a parent yet! But if I get the privilege of becoming one, I hope to also carry on the level of anticipatory care, slightly overbearing love, and Taiwanese phrases to my future children!
So beautifully said. Look at us, three Taiwanese American women in a (virtual) room. Oftentimes, we carry our identities in our work. How has your Taiwanese American identity shaped your story or your illustrations? What is important to you when depicting Taiwanese culture?
Jocelyn: My Taiwanese American identity has been the crux of all my work so far. I’m passionate about sharing Taiwanese and Taiwanese American culture. Taiwanese culture is diverse – it encompasses different groups of indigenous people and experiences and layers of immigration. There’s multiple languages in Taiwan, including Taiwanese Hokkien which I have in the book. But Taiwanese culture is multi-layered and complex. For example, there are immigrants now from Vietnam and the Philippines who have settled in Taiwan now. And so I think it’s important that as a Taiwanese American person who’s family immigrated to the US during a very specific time, I need to keep updating my knowledge of what’s happening in Taiwan […] because Taiwan is constantly changing. And it’s important to remember my experience as a Taiwanese American person is authentic, but also not the only Taiwanese experience.
Julia: That’s so interesting! Jocelyn, I always appreciate hearing your POV as an ABC who’s gone back and lived in Taiwan – it gives you such a unique perspective.
I started freelancing when I was 21, doing editorial illustrations for the NYT travelers column. In my very first illustration, I had to depict “default people” and so I painted two blonde people. But soon I asked myself, “why not draw people with warm skin and dark hair as a default?”
These days, my interest is in specificity. Asian people, like any other people group, are not a monolith. I’m interested in all the niche stories and areas of representation. Why not show someone who is not only Taiwanese American, but also has the same outdoors hobbies as I do? These illustrations will be mirrors for some people and windows for others.
Jasmine: My favorite spread in WHEN LOVE IS MORE THAN WORDS is of the mom rubbing tiger balm on the daughter’s chest and they’re surrounded by Asian fruit. (The kids jumping in the water is a close second). Absolutely beautiful and feels so nostalgic! Lian wu, dragonfruit, yum! I’m curious which is your favorite illustration in this story?
Jocelyn: That is my favorite spread! I love that spread! It was the one that I connected to immediately when I saw Julia’s sketches for the first time.
Julia: I really like the spread with the mom feeding grandma soup, probably because it’s technically strong. But I also love the group of folks on the “aunties and uncles” spread, because that captures the feeling of our family gatherings. There’s always people all around, often close and touching. Chances are there’ll be someone with a hong bao, another person with a thermos, and someone eating fruit!
Jasmine: Let’s take a peek behind the curtain. Can you share about the publishing process for this book – any particular joys or challenges?
Jocelyn: Since this was my first experience publishing a book, there were a lot of challenges and joys because everything was new! I had to understand that publishing has a lot of moving parts and in the end it is a collaborative effort of a team. I learned that having the discernment of knowing when to compromise and when to advocate for certain elements, is an important skill when telling stories that are culturally specific.
Julia: At one point I saw that in the most recent iteration of the manuscript that some Taiwanese and Japanese phrases had been moved out of the main text and into a word bubble. I thought this would be a “way out” of interacting with the culture that Jocelyn’s text is sharing and asked if the publishing team would consider keeping them in the main text, which they did!
Jasmine: I’m glad you spoke up, Julia! Can you share some of the creators that have inspired your work and / or lifted you up along the way?
Jocelyn: A number of people have lifted me up. Julia is definitely one! She’s been so gracious to answer my many questions. Joanna Ho helped me think through publishing options at the beginning of the journey. Others that come to mind are Jenny Wang from Asians for Mental Health and Joon Park who just wrote a book on grief. Also my wonderful agent, Chris Park, and my Asian American Studies Masters program cohort from SFSU!
Julia: Alvina Ling and Connie Hsu are two amazing editors that I’ve worked with. They have done so much to put picture books by Taiwanese Americans and creators of color on the shelves! Seeing how they work with storytelling has been so inspiring.
I met Alvina through a childhood connection and she gave me my first book (written by Jenny Han). During the process, Jenny’s agent reached out and asked if I needed representation, and that agent (Emily Van Beek) has really been responsible for much of my career in books!
Connie published my first solo book and we’ve actually got another on the way.
On a peer level, I’ve really loved getting to know Livia Blackburne ever since we worked on I DREAM OF POPO together. Now she’s one of the first people I text about anything book related!
Jasmine: It’s so important to have community and also pay it forward. How was collaborating with another Taiwanese American creator? (If it was terrible, you can say pass). How much did you communicate during the process?
Jocelyn: I loved working with Julia! I fully trusted her in this process. We didn’t communicate until close to when the book was completed.
Julia: We met in Taiwan on two occasions and shared some lovely meals together!
Jasmine: What do you wish the reader will walk away with or feel after reading your story?
Jocelyn: I hope that readers young and old will be able to recognize different ways love can show up in their lives and how that love has nourished them. This is a children’s book, but this story was also written for the parents. Some parents have reached out to me sharing that they are recalling memories of loved ones that were long forgotten. Yes this book is written from a Taiwanese American perspective, but I hope that everyone will be able to see themselves in this intergenerational love story. Julia does a great job of capturing the feelings and memories in each spread!
Julia: I’m hoping that there will be a group of Taiwanese American readers who will read this book and immediately identify with it! I’d love for them to see their own families represented especially with the story’s Taiwanese, Japanese and Mandarin phrases and say “wait, that’s me!”
I originally wanted to make the artwork super maximalist, swirling with objects of endearment and affection to represent the feeling of love being all around. We did that on some pages but the publishing team had me hold off on other pages so there could be moments of rest!
Jasmine: So what’s next in the pipeline?
Jocelyn: I have a book coming out in early 2026 called THE RIVER OF CARETAKING, illustrated by Sarah Gonzales. I have a few other projects in the works as well! And of course, all the while continuing to work full-time as a designer!
Julia: HOME IS A WISH, a book I wrote and illustrated, will come out Spring 2025. And I’ve got a few more in progress: one about mountains under the same publisher as LUMINOUS, as well as BING’S CHERRIES (written by I DREAM OF POPO author Livia Blackburne).
Jasmine: I’m excited for all your future projects. Let me ask, do you have a dream project? It could be simple or a no financial limit, pie-in-the-sky creation.
Julia: I’d love to follow a team of researchers to Antarctica or the Arctic Circle and document their journey!
Jocelyn: Wow I feel like I need to dream bigger! Hmm I haven’t been asked this before. I’d like to publish a long-form memoir one day.
In the short term, I’d like to write and illustrate my own book, incorporating lettering somehow because letterforms are my first love!
Jasmine: We’re manifesting these dream projects for you! And lastly, I run Ask Me Anythings at work and usually wrap up with quickfire questions. Please fill in the blank and finish these sentences for me.
Better humans are _____.
Jocelyn: empathetic
Julia: generous
Better stories are _____.
Jocelyn: full
Julia: lived
The world needs more ______.
Jocelyn: Taiwanese food other than beef noodle soup and boba
Julia: cute babies
Jasmine: Agreed, the world needs more Taiwanese food and cute babies. Thank you, Jocelyn and Julia! Wonderful chatting with you and connecting over our Taiwanese American heritage. Look forward to seeing and sharing more of your work in the future!
Jasmine Fang is a Taiwanese American writer, civil servant, and mom of two. She cares about building communities, healthy living, and increasing gratitude and humor in her everyday. Jasmine has worked in international affairs and higher education, and now develops future leaders in government. Jasmine lives in the San Francisco Bay Area with her family. She has a forthcoming, unannounced picture book.
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